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	<title>Comments on: Fresh wild melon and meat full of gravy: food texture verbs in G&#124;ui (Khoisan)</title>
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	<description>Sounding out ideas on African languages, sound symbolism, and expressivity</description>
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		<title>By: Jess Tauber</title>
		<link>http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/comment-page-1/#comment-1183</link>
		<dc:creator>Jess Tauber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi again. I&#039;ve looked at sound symbolism in a couple of Khoisan languages. Not ideophonic per se, but verbal. But then Bantu ideophones freely intermingle with verbs anyway (especially in Southern Bantu).

Many of the terms that were either borrowed from or modeled on Khoisan neighbors (say into Zulu, as click-initial forms) deal with material textures and various ways of interacting with these.

In the Khoisan I&#039;ve examined, many of the forms that end in -m, glottalized -m, nasalized -o or -u have something to do with eating.

Interestingly, so do verbs beginning with the rare labial clicks. In languages like Mongolian, where one can have CVC-C ideophone stems, the phonosemantics of the third C seems identical to that of the first (while the second is opposed). This third C can be any of the allowed phonemes.

Perhaps then the final C in Khoisan verbs is similar this regard to the first, click-based one (though not a click itself).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi again. I&#8217;ve looked at sound symbolism in a couple of Khoisan languages. Not ideophonic per se, but verbal. But then Bantu ideophones freely intermingle with verbs anyway (especially in Southern Bantu).</p>
<p>Many of the terms that were either borrowed from or modeled on Khoisan neighbors (say into Zulu, as click-initial forms) deal with material textures and various ways of interacting with these.</p>
<p>In the Khoisan I&#8217;ve examined, many of the forms that end in -m, glottalized -m, nasalized -o or -u have something to do with eating.</p>
<p>Interestingly, so do verbs beginning with the rare labial clicks. In languages like Mongolian, where one can have CVC-C ideophone stems, the phonosemantics of the third C seems identical to that of the first (while the second is opposed). This third C can be any of the allowed phonemes.</p>
<p>Perhaps then the final C in Khoisan verbs is similar this regard to the first, click-based one (though not a click itself).</p>
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		<title>By: Four Stone Hearth #35, Giants are Real Edition &#171; Archaeoporn</title>
		<link>http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/comment-page-1/#comment-217</link>
		<dc:creator>Four Stone Hearth #35, Giants are Real Edition &#171; Archaeoporn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/#comment-217</guid>
		<description>[...] you hear me singing, Mark Dingemanse writes about the words others use. Recently he wrote about Ideophones in G&#124;ui. it comes from G&#124;ui, a Khoisan language of Botswana. To Africanists, expressive words from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] you hear me singing, Mark Dingemanse writes about the words others use. Recently he wrote about Ideophones in G|ui. it comes from G|ui, a Khoisan language of Botswana. To Africanists, expressive words from [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Dingemanse</title>
		<link>http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/comment-page-1/#comment-196</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Dingemanse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/#comment-196</guid>
		<description>Lev, I&#039;ve been slow in replying because I&#039;m on a fieldtrip now &#8212; but I highly appreciate your perceptive comments and the issues you raise have been on my mind a lot lately. More later!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lev, I&#8217;ve been slow in replying because I&#8217;m on a fieldtrip now &mdash; but I highly appreciate your perceptive comments and the issues you raise have been on my mind a lot lately. More later!</p>
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		<title>By: Lev Michael</title>
		<link>http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/comment-page-1/#comment-149</link>
		<dc:creator>Lev Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/#comment-149</guid>
		<description>Mark, 

Thanks for your insightful response. I look forward to your post comparing Westermann and Nuckolls. And good luck, btw, on your upcoming fieldwork!

You were quite right to correct my crude representation of Nuckolls&#039; position, but at the end of the day I think we are still left with a hypothesis that connects a society&#039;s relationship with nature - be it philosophical, ideological, or material (or all three!) - with the occurrence of ideophones in language spoken in that society. There may very well be a plausible mechanism connecting the two phenomena, but I still have a hard time seeing what that might be. 

My personal hunch is that the use of ideophones, and their systematization, has probably more to do with language ideologies regarding the role of mimesis in discourse. Even in Western societies, children use ideophones in play (Blam blam! Kaboom! etc.), and informal interactions are frequently rich in other expressive resources. But in more formal interactions, I believe, the skilled selection of lexical items is valued over the deployment of expressive resources like ideophones. (As a though experiment, imagine a political leader of a Western society employing an ideophone in a political address.) I suspect that speakers in a given society associate the use of mimesis with certain kinds of social positions  and interactional stances, and that it is the value placed on these positions and stances by speakers that affect the use of mimesis and its subsequent elaboration into resources like ideophones. As you suggest, many different factors could feed into this.

Your suggestion that I look at other expressive resources is well-taken, and its worth mentioning that in Nanti, one of the languages I am working with, there is significant elaboration of prosodic features to express a wide range of affective and interactional stances. In fact, my partner, Chris Beier, is writing her dissertation on this very topic, and she has uncovered some very subtle and interesting ways in which prosodic features encode stances. You two should talk!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, </p>
<p>Thanks for your insightful response. I look forward to your post comparing Westermann and Nuckolls. And good luck, btw, on your upcoming fieldwork!</p>
<p>You were quite right to correct my crude representation of Nuckolls&#8217; position, but at the end of the day I think we are still left with a hypothesis that connects a society&#8217;s relationship with nature &#8211; be it philosophical, ideological, or material (or all three!) &#8211; with the occurrence of ideophones in language spoken in that society. There may very well be a plausible mechanism connecting the two phenomena, but I still have a hard time seeing what that might be. </p>
<p>My personal hunch is that the use of ideophones, and their systematization, has probably more to do with language ideologies regarding the role of mimesis in discourse. Even in Western societies, children use ideophones in play (Blam blam! Kaboom! etc.), and informal interactions are frequently rich in other expressive resources. But in more formal interactions, I believe, the skilled selection of lexical items is valued over the deployment of expressive resources like ideophones. (As a though experiment, imagine a political leader of a Western society employing an ideophone in a political address.) I suspect that speakers in a given society associate the use of mimesis with certain kinds of social positions  and interactional stances, and that it is the value placed on these positions and stances by speakers that affect the use of mimesis and its subsequent elaboration into resources like ideophones. As you suggest, many different factors could feed into this.</p>
<p>Your suggestion that I look at other expressive resources is well-taken, and its worth mentioning that in Nanti, one of the languages I am working with, there is significant elaboration of prosodic features to express a wide range of affective and interactional stances. In fact, my partner, Chris Beier, is writing her dissertation on this very topic, and she has uncovered some very subtle and interesting ways in which prosodic features encode stances. You two should talk!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Dingemanse</title>
		<link>http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/comment-page-1/#comment-142</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Dingemanse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/#comment-142</guid>
		<description>Lev &#8212; great comment. I actually gave it away too early, as I&#039;ve been working on a post comparing Westermann&#039;s and Nuckoll&#039;s views on the issue (which are surprisingly similar, I&#039;d say). As for ideophony as a primitiveness index, I agree that there is a certain danger there, but I don&#039;t think it necessarily applies to Nuckolls&#039; argument, which I find quite carefully phrased.

Nuckolls, by the way, doesn&#039;t say the Japanese are close to nature; what she says is that &quot;Japanese culture has at base ideas about nature that are so radically different from Judeo-Christian constructions that ideophony has been allowed to flourish&quot; (p. 133). I think we must at least entertain this possibility, yet at the same time I feel this cannot be the whole story. One problem with the Japanese mimetics, for example, is that a lot of them don&#039;t have that much to do with nature (but rather with inner feelings and emotions). Perhaps the Japanese data points in another direction; I think it shows that there are multiple powers at work shaping the nature of ideophony in any given language. Anyway, more on that later. (It may take some time; I won&#039;t be working on this during my six-week fieldtrip which begins in a few days.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;I’ve worked in Amazonian societies that are very ‘close to nature’ whose languages exhibit relatively little ideophony&lt;/blockquote&gt;
See, that&#039;s intriguing, and an interesting limiting case to be reckoned with in any theory of ideophony. But certainly you overlooked the food texture verbs, on which I just prepared a follow-up posting. Just kidding.

Only half kidding, though &#8212; it would be interesting to know how and to what extent the languages you mention cultivate their expressive resources. What about landscape vocabulary? Visual patterns? Manners of movement? Inner feelings and sensations? What about narratives &#8212; how involved is the audience, and what kind of techniques are used by narrators to get them involved? And moving beyond the verbal domain: what about gestures?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lev &mdash; great comment. I actually gave it away too early, as I&#8217;ve been working on a post comparing Westermann&#8217;s and Nuckoll&#8217;s views on the issue (which are surprisingly similar, I&#8217;d say). As for ideophony as a primitiveness index, I agree that there is a certain danger there, but I don&#8217;t think it necessarily applies to Nuckolls&#8217; argument, which I find quite carefully phrased.</p>
<p>Nuckolls, by the way, doesn&#8217;t say the Japanese are close to nature; what she says is that &#8220;Japanese culture has at base ideas about nature that are so radically different from Judeo-Christian constructions that ideophony has been allowed to flourish&#8221; (p. 133). I think we must at least entertain this possibility, yet at the same time I feel this cannot be the whole story. One problem with the Japanese mimetics, for example, is that a lot of them don&#8217;t have that much to do with nature (but rather with inner feelings and emotions). Perhaps the Japanese data points in another direction; I think it shows that there are multiple powers at work shaping the nature of ideophony in any given language. Anyway, more on that later. (It may take some time; I won&#8217;t be working on this during my six-week fieldtrip which begins in a few days.)</p>
<blockquote><p>I’ve worked in Amazonian societies that are very ‘close to nature’ whose languages exhibit relatively little ideophony</p></blockquote>
<p>See, that&#8217;s intriguing, and an interesting limiting case to be reckoned with in any theory of ideophony. But certainly you overlooked the food texture verbs, on which I just prepared a follow-up posting. Just kidding.</p>
<p>Only half kidding, though &mdash; it would be interesting to know how and to what extent the languages you mention cultivate their expressive resources. What about landscape vocabulary? Visual patterns? Manners of movement? Inner feelings and sensations? What about narratives &mdash; how involved is the audience, and what kind of techniques are used by narrators to get them involved? And moving beyond the verbal domain: what about gestures?</p>
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		<title>By: Lev Michael</title>
		<link>http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/comment-page-1/#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>Lev Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 00:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/#comment-137</guid>
		<description>When I read your previous post on ideophony in Japanese I thought of Janice Nuckoll&#039;s comments regarding the propensity of societies that are &#039;close to nature&#039; to develop ideophones, and then, towards the end of this post, you indexed them yourself. Personally, I feel skeptical that the correlation is robust, but I&#039;m curious what you think, since you have no doubt thought about these issues much more deeply than I have. I&#039;ve worked in Amazonian societies that are very &#039;close to nature&#039; whose languages exhibit relatively little ideophony, and I think it would be hard to describe the hyper-urban Japanese as being &#039;close to nature&#039;, despite the extensive ideophony that you discussed nicely in your previous post. 

I also find it hard to understand how, precisely, being &#039;close to nature&#039;, however one chooses to operationalize the notion, would give rise to ideophony. What is the link? At root, might the hypothesized correlation be -- to put it somewhat provocatively -- anything more than a whitewashed and updated conception of the bogus correlation once seen between &#039;primitive societies&#039; and &#039;primitive languages&#039;, where ideophony is an index of &#039;primitiveness&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read your previous post on ideophony in Japanese I thought of Janice Nuckoll&#8217;s comments regarding the propensity of societies that are &#8216;close to nature&#8217; to develop ideophones, and then, towards the end of this post, you indexed them yourself. Personally, I feel skeptical that the correlation is robust, but I&#8217;m curious what you think, since you have no doubt thought about these issues much more deeply than I have. I&#8217;ve worked in Amazonian societies that are very &#8216;close to nature&#8217; whose languages exhibit relatively little ideophony, and I think it would be hard to describe the hyper-urban Japanese as being &#8216;close to nature&#8217;, despite the extensive ideophony that you discussed nicely in your previous post. </p>
<p>I also find it hard to understand how, precisely, being &#8216;close to nature&#8217;, however one chooses to operationalize the notion, would give rise to ideophony. What is the link? At root, might the hypothesized correlation be &#8212; to put it somewhat provocatively &#8212; anything more than a whitewashed and updated conception of the bogus correlation once seen between &#8216;primitive societies&#8217; and &#8216;primitive languages&#8217;, where ideophony is an index of &#8216;primitiveness&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Lameen</title>
		<link>http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/comment-page-1/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator>Lameen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ideophone.org/khoisan-food-texture-verbs/#comment-119</guid>
		<description>Kwarandzie isn&#039;t big on taste vocabulary, but I found myself reminded of qezqez &quot;taste like unripe dates&quot; (which leave a rather horrible feeling in your mouth).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kwarandzie isn&#8217;t big on taste vocabulary, but I found myself reminded of qezqez &#8220;taste like unripe dates&#8221; (which leave a rather horrible feeling in your mouth).</p>
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